Joyce Riley From The Power Hour Interviews:
Ronald MacDonald and Dr. Rowen
25-September-2009 2 Hours


[Joyce]                         We’re going to go to our guest today and I want to say thank you very much, Ron MacDonald for joining us on the Power Hour today and Dr. Robert Rowen. Gentlemen, thank you for joining us to day on the Power Hour.

[Dr Rowen]                 Thank you, Joyce, and good morning.

[Joyce]                        Oh, it is really nice to have you joining us. I’m just so sorry it’s so early in the morning for you. I do hope that you’ve gotten a little bit awake and you’re as fired up as we are already this morning because there’s lots of things happening we need to address. Alright, let’s start off—we’ve already asked people to call in that have the book but let’s start off with delving into what the book is about. Ron, why don’t you give us sort of the bottom line version of what They Own It All Including You is going to tell people. And by the way, the subtitle is They Own It All Including You by Means of Toxic Currency. Why don’t you give us the underlying underpinnings of this book?

[Ron MacDonald]       Ok, basically, the book entails the taking over of the wealth of the people globally and it explains how that was done. It doesn’t explain why it was done but the why is always based in selfishness and greed. That’s usually the motivation for anyone wanting to steal someone else’s property. And what has happened here in the United States is reflective, again, around the globe. And basically it’s happened and it’s been strategized from the beginning of time how a group, possibly a group of financiers, people that are in control of the money system, have decided the best course to remove the wealth of all people around the world and they’ve done that through the toxic currency we call the Federal Reserve note or any other species, if you want to say currency, throughout the United States and they’ve done it completely and they’ve taken control of everyone’s property, everyone’s life, and we are the product and the property of that system, right now. We are owned outright.

[Joyce]                         Ok, let me go to Dr. Rowen. Dr. Rowen, your sort of synthesis of what this book is about.

[Dr. Rowen]                Not only is about taking over all of our property but one of the fundamentals of all liberty is if you have no property you have no rights. All rights stem from property because the most fundamental of rights is the right to contract and you have to have your own property in order to contract. You have to have title, rights and interest in it. So, through the currency which we have proven is liened currency to the creditor in our case the Federal Reserve bank. Overseas it might be the Bank of England or some other bank. Everything that you think you own is liened and therefore to use their property when we say, they own it all, since we have no property and we’re debtors, we’re chattel, which means they own it all including you and because they own everything we need their permission to licensure or whatever they impose upon us to do everything that they ask. That is what has compelled us into the mercy of the government.

[Joyce]                         So, when you say they own it all including you, how do they own—I know this gets to the bottom line of the book, I don’t want to give it all away but you were saying they own each individual, is that correct?

[Dr. Rowen]                Well, what we’re saying is all of our heritage comes from the English common law and in common law if you’re a debtor you have no rights. You are subject, you are beholden, you are actually the property of the creditor. We are debtors in this country, all of us, because we’re using debt notes. We’re using their property. We proved that the Federal Reserve note is the privately owned property of an international offshore corporation, a foreign corporation. It’s their property. Actually, we can’t necessarily say it’s offshore, it’s a foreign corporation. We can say that it’s foreign, right, Ron?

[Ron]               Yes.

[Joyce]             Ok, I want to go, before we do the 861 issue with Larkin Rose because that has been contentious on this program. And for those of you who are not familiar with what it is, Ron, why don’t you explain what the 861—what was does 861 just mean, just that alone?

[Ron]               It means that you’re subject to paying income tax on any foreign profit, anything that you get outside the United States, that’s the basis of all income tax, at least that was the argument.

[Joyce]             Ok, that was the argument and we’ll leave it at that point. Let me first go to Bill in Tennessee because Bill has read the book, I know, I’ve talked to him about it and Bill is sort of our gold standard, here at the Power Hour. I run things by Bill. I ask Bill for help. I ask Bill for clarification. He has been doing his research since he retired from the military. Let me just say, welcome to the Power Hour, Bill. Thanks for calling in this morning. Bill, give us a call back. Bill retired from the military, from the air force. Let me go to Milton in Indiana. Milton, you’re on the air. Have you read the book by Ron MacDonald and Robert Rowen?

[Milton]           Well, most of it.

[Joyce]             Ok, and what is your feeling thus far, what is your concern thus far, what are your comments thus far on reading the book?

[Milton]           Well, I bought it specifically because one of the authors mentioned the shield on interstate highways show somehow that we are in the maritime jurisdiction and I want to know actually what the specific law. If it is in a maritime jurisdiction, all the miles on the interstates should be in nautical miles.

[Joyce]             Ok, who wants to take that question?

[Ron]               Ok, I’ll try and address it. The thing that one has to keep in mind is how the United States came into existence. Within the book you’ll see that the United States never adopted common law therefore it also does not have common law crimes. It doesn’t address common law crimes. But there are three jurisdictions that it addresses in the Constitution. It does say law which infers common law and it says admiralty and equity law. Well, it excluded common law and for the obvious reason is that the common law was the law of the land and the people within the state were in the jurisdiction of common law. And if you know anything about law you don’t replicate jurisdictions. Jurisdictions are separated. So there was no need for the United States to ever adopt common law. So we are dealing with admiralty or equity. Well, equity law is the law of contract and it’s simple contract between parties. In this case because it’s United States it would be international contracts. But under the admiralty law of the United States—and admiralty is contract on the high seas in the time of war. Maritime is contract on the high seas in a time of peace. That is the jurisdiction that the United States moves under. So when it creates an act, it creates an act either in maritime or admiralty inclusive of that military badge known as a US 101 or 164 or Route 66 or whatever. There are acts created under their jurisdiction and if you read Conklin, Alfred Conklin, he says and he’s specific about it the courts of the United States are admiralty courts and that’s basically it and it describes it. And he was a US District Court judge.

[Joyce]             What we’re trying to do is get to the truth of it all and part of that truth, I believe, or all of that truth can be contained in the book, They Own it all Including You by Ron MacDonald and Dr. Robert Rowen. Now we’ve asked for some phone calls on impressions of the book. Now, let me just go back to Milton and say, Milton, I really don’t want to go into separate issues and questions and challenges, right now. If we could I’d like for you just to give your comment on thus far what do you think about this book?

[Milton]           Well, I just thought it was out of date in general by about twenty or twenty-five years. Section 5164 of the Omnibus Trade and Competitive Act of 1988 you’ll see that it defines a nautical mile as for use, for commercial use, within the United States and no other mile is defined.

[Joyce]             Ok, so you want to pick on the specific issue, then—ok.

[Milton]           …just the general issue that it’s out of date. For example, no mention of the currency Act of 1986 either.

[Joyce]             Ok, thank you very much for your comment. Let me go to Bill in Tennessee and see what he thinks and we’ve got a bunch of callers on the line, right now. When we open up the phone lines this early we know what happens. So let’s go to Bill in Tennessee. Bill, welcome to the Power Hour this morning. You’re on with Ron MacDonald and Robert Rowen. Go ahead, please.

[Bill]                Thank you, Joyce. As you know, fraud vitiates all. That is, fraud negates everything. Everything to do with the Federal Reserve system including their currency is fraud. It was conceived in fraud and has perpetuated to this day, it’s all fraud. And as for law, the courts, now today, are operating under modified admiralty/maritime and they call it statutory jurisdiction and actually it’s no jurisdiction at all because even under admiralty or maritime they would lack jurisdiction because that involved nautical contracts, maritime contracts. It has nothing to do with in-land law plus federal courts have no jurisdiction outside the District of Columbia. That’s the only place they have jurisdiction and I know several people that have gone into federal court, walked up to the judge and told him he had absolutely no jurisdiction and turned and walked out and even said they’d be waiting outside for fifteen minutes if they wanted to contact him and he’d never been contacted.

[Joyce]             Ok, they have jurisdiction, where?

[Bill]                In the ten mile square district {D.C.} and the territories.

[Joyce]             Now, let me ask you though, your comment, though on the book. You’ve read the book.

[Bill]                Yes, I have.

[Joyce]             Ok, What is your comment on They Own it All Including You?

[Bill]                Everything they say is accurate. It’s very well written and I really enjoyed the book.

[Joyce]             Ok, what did you learn from this book, because you’ve been studying this for years and I’m surprised anybody could teach you anything. I don’t mean that in a negative way because you’ve know so much of this information. But what did the book say to you?

[Bill]                Well, the main thing I got from the book was the explanation on usury. The Bible prohibits usury. Most people don’t even know that and it also prohibits debt. It says, neither a lender nor a debtor be. But with Federal Reserve notes you have no option. They are debt. That’s all they are, there’s no intrinsic value to Federal Reserve notes. I won’t say no, but the buying power of a Federal Reserve note, right today, is less than five cents and that’s evident by the fact that it takes twenty Federal Reserve notes to buy one silver dollar. I haven’t figured, lately, to see what the worth of a Federal Reserve note is towards gold but, now, that gold is over a thousand dollars, it’s less than five cents.

[Joyce]             Interesting. Alright, let me ask you, just real quickly, on another situation because I’ve wanted to get you on the phone this past week on the program, that Kansas case regarding that will affect eventually half of the mortgages in this country and we wanted to ask you, do you think this case is going to be overturned which says that you have to have the deed of trust and the lien by the lien holder, the name of the lien holder on there, and your comment when I asked you, do you think this case will be overturned—your comment was?

[Bill]                That case can’t be overturned by anybody but the Kansas Supreme Court. They’re the only ones that can overturn it. Now, let me read to you from the Constitution, Article Four, Section One. Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records and judicial proceedings of every other state. So, thatKansas case, that ruling in a Kansas case, can be used in any state.

[Joyce]             And that is huge, it is huge. Hey, listen, Bill, I want to thank you very much. Would you recommend this book for other people to read.

[Bill]                Yes, I would, and let me say, I would like to talk to these gentlemen. Would you please give them my phone number and e-mail?

[Joyce]             I certainly will. Thank you very much.

[Dr Rowen]     I want to thank Bill for his comment. I want to comment on just a couple things here if I have a chance.

[Joyce]             Sure, go ahead.

[Dr. Rowen]    The first caller mentioned about roads. Let’s disregard the issue of nautical miles for a moment. There’s an old saying, all roads lead to Rome. Have you heard that before?

[Joyce]             Certainly.

[Dr. Rowen]    Ok, the concept here is that the government has control over commerce, international and interstate commerce. Any road that is connected to the port is on that line of commerce. Does that make sense?

[Joyce]             Yes.

[Dr. Rowen]    All roads are connected to the ports.

[Joyce]             Interesting.

[Dr. Rowen]    So that answers one question. The other question that came up was the jurisdiction and I agree with the caller about the jurisdiction of Washington, D.C, but there is one other place in Article Four where Congress shall have all the power to make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property of theUnited States. What is other property? That’s what our book is about—toxic currency. It is property that is loaned to the United States by the Federal Reserve Bank. It’s owned by the Federal Reserve Bank but it’s property of, in the care of the United States government therefore it is their other property and the courts have jurisdiction over it through the territorial Article Four. Ron, would you agree with that?

[Ron]               Yes, I would. And I’d like to make a comment on the life source of the federal government. The life source of the federal government by which it does all its acts, grants all its finances to the state, is under the revenue clauses, revenue collection. It pays for highways, it grants money for highways and I recall stating that we’ve mentioned a case…   And I’m just going to quote that first sentence of it. It says, in this country revenue clauses have long been the subject of admiralty cognizance. Congress considers them as civil clauses of admiralty and maritime jurisdiction. Well, if the only thing that the United States can do is use the revenue that it collects from citizens and it uses that from admiralty then what are those highways bought through? Admiralty jurisdiction—they’re paid for through admiralty jurisdiction. And that’s how we know that is—but the point is that each of us needs to recognize that we walk on the land and we swim in the ocean. The laws of the ocean do not apply to the laws of walking on land, either do the laws of walking on land apply to swimming in the ocean and we find ourselves on the ocean right now—within the ocean.

[Joyce]             You know what, I just got goose bumps because Josh had handed me something a few days ago. Listen to this: It is a CDC fact sheet on the Dallas-Fort Worth quarantine station. But listen to this statement: the jurisdiction of the Dallas-Fort Worth quarantine station includes all ports in Arkansas, Kansas, Missouri, Oklahoma in addition to north central Texas.

[Dr. Rowen]    What does that tell you?

[Joyce]             Oh, my gosh, that gives me goose bumps. That is incredible.

[Dr. Rowen]    I’m going to give you some more goose bumps, Joyce. Have you ever heard the name, Jonathan Wright?

[Joyce]             Yes.

[Dr. Rowen]    Jonathan Wright is one of the most famous alternative doctors in the world. He’s near Seattle, Washington. In 1991 or 2 he was raided by the Kings Countysheriffs in conjunction with the Food and Drug Administration. They served him with a search warrant. On the back of the search warrant was one word which he could never understand until we wrote the book and he read the book. The word was admiralty. What was a doctor selling B vitamins and shipping B vitamins in the mail to his patients doing in admiralty? And in the book we also describe and define the word, station. It is a maritime/admiralty definition. It is a safe haven out at sea and that’s with station. And that’s the way it is defined in the United States.

[Joyce]             Ok, that is really chilling to me. I mean, there it is, right there, ladies and gentlemen. This is a CDC fact sheet from the Department of Health and Human Services stating that the jurisdiction of Dallas-Fort Worth quarantine station includes all ports in Arkansas, Kansas and Missouri and Oklahoma in addition to north centralTexas. Alright, let’s move this subject and cover the 861 before we move on to other issues here. We’ve got a lot of callers. I’ll tell you what, let me take Maureen inVirginia. I know she’s read the book, let’s go to Maureen. Maureen, you’re on the air with Ron MacDonald and Robert Rowen. Go ahead, please.

[Maureen]        Hey, gentlemen, you have helped me connect so many dots. I have so many facts in my head and sometimes it just didn’t go together. I think I probably got facts you don’t have but you guys sure have facts that I didn’t have. That book is something should read before they even go into anything so far as getting out of the system because it just was so illuminating. Thank you so much, you guys for writing that.

[Joyce]             Thank you, Maureen. I appreciate that. Thank you very much.

[Maureen]        Bye bye.

[Joyce]             So, I mean, Maureen’s been studying this for a long time also so, ladies and gentlemen, if it helps our long-time studiers then that tells you something. Let me take one other phone call, John from Missouri. John, you’re on the air, go ahead, please.

[John]              Good morning. I started reading the book. I haven’t read it all yet but it is a very good book. I sent it to a friend in Colorado. Mary’s been in this for well over twenty years. She said the book is right on point. Everything is there.

[Joyce]             Mary has been studying for a long time, hasn’t she?

[John]              Yeah, she has. And she’s got trouble brewing today still. If she doesn’t get these judges back down they’re going to throw her in jail for thirty years.

[Joyce]             Oh my gosh, and she’s seventy-two, isn’t she?

[John]              Yeah, she is.

[Joyce]             Oh, my goodness.

[John]              They’re not following their rules. They’re warring against the country. Part of my question, today, is they demand that we pay in dollars, Federal Reserve notes, but that’s not Constitutional money. So if you pay for something, say a house or a farm, that’s been in the family for a hundred years and it was actually paid for with honest money wouldn’t that have a different standing then what’s been used with this toxic currency?

[Dr. Rowen]    I think that’s a fantastic question. Ron, I’m sure you can explain that terrific.

[Ron]               Yeah, and the thing is that once it was paid for by gold it is actually owned outright by the person who purchased it, however we have a thing called presumption of law today. And it’s presumed unless one objects or rebuts that you have actually paid by Federal Reserve notes and we are not actually, John, we are not forced to accept and pay or receive Federal Reserve notes—the states are. But we, as citizens, are not. You’ll find that on the US Treasury site. We can accept lawful money. We can accept beans for our services if you want. But the point is that we do have a right to move outside of that jurisdiction, the one that values our house with the Federal Reserve notes. And this goes back to 1933 when they issued the fiat money. They really did at that point steal the wealth of the American people because we did not rebut that law. We did not rebut that act. We said that our property that we have on that day right after they took us off the gold standard was measured by valueless obligations of the United States under Title 12, Section 411. And that section says that the Federal Reserve note is nothing more than an obligation, a debt of the United States and that we when we accept them we say we will measure our wealth by debts. How much are you worth if all your wealth is measured by debt? Can they compel you? Can they compel you in a court of law to measure your personal wealth by debt? That’s fraud, isn’t it?

[John]              Yes. Now, when you go in for a speeding ticket or whatever and they say, ‘well, pay the clerk at the window,’ they never tell you that it’s in dollars, Federal Reserve notes, but we always seem to assume that that’s where it’s at. I’ve been told that they can’t demand that we pay them in that, so how do we approach that issue for property taxes and everything else.

[Ron]               We can’t give you legal advice.

[John]              I understand that—yes, sir.

[Ron]               We can say that you’re right on point, they cannot compel you and the argument will always be, first of all, are you one subject to the DMV? Now, this goes into a greater field of law. But the point is, is that presumption is at the bottom line of every attack by an agency of the United States.

[Dr. Rowen]    I wanted you to expand on that, Ron, that part of the problem is that there are presumptions in these courts. There didn’t used to be until we got the Federal Reserve note in.

[Ron]               If you check out some of your older law dictionaries and look up and define the term presumption it says that if a man is convicted of a presumption his due process has been violated. {demand that the plaintiff be in the courtroom and present his evidence and do not give them any information from you—do not join the case.} Well, they can’t presume you’re a driver. They must prove you’re a driver but today when you go into court that’s never raised. {you have to raise it—where’s the contract and where’s the person with first hand knowledge who witnessed me signing that contract?} They can’t presume you’re a taxpayer. They must prove you’re a taxpayer. This is what’s called the plenary, this is a full court hearing, a court judgment. It’s on every aspect of your case. Now, these laws that you’re stipulating or are actually raising are special laws. We, as citizens of the United States, and I use the term, United States, not the federal government, but the states united never fell under, never was subject to special law. We fall under the general law. The general laws are the common law and every man, woman and child are subject to the general laws of the country and that is the law of the land. When you start moving into agency law which is that fourth branch of government you’ve fallen under special laws that are for a class of citizen. Now, a class of citizen, and we know that our Constitution, our fundamental principles are based on a non-prejudicial system that you cannot prejudice one class over another. But I’m going to tell you that we have classes of citizens. We have drivers, they’re a class of citizen. And if you do not have that special privilege you cannot drive—that’s a class of citizen. There are doctors who are licensed and they’re a special class of citizen. They don’t fall under the general law—they fall under special law. Do you see where I’m going with it? These are all presumptions of law. But unless you rebut those presumptions in court and there are means to do it, it’s not something that you can learn over night but it’s a study in the course of law and presumptions that you can get out from under that type of situation. And, again, I’m not giving legal advice.

[John]              Yes, sir.

[Joyce]             Keith, anything else you want to add quickly?

[Dr. Rowen]    We’re talking to John.

[Joyce]             Ok, I’m sorry—John. John, anything else you wanted to add?

[John]              Well, I could talk to you gentlemen for hours and it’s a pleasure to have them on your show and the book is good—I hope more people get it.

[Joyce]             Thank you very much for the phone call. Let me ask you this, Ron MacDonald, what happens if we order a case of books from you called They Own It All Including You, which is the book you all have written and I want to pay you in gold, what happens when I ask you, is it ok to pay you in real money, what happens legally, is that allowed?

[Ron]               Yeah, it’s allowed. The thing is, is that when you pay in lawful money it can’t be seen by the United States and that’s proven in a court case, it’s proven in the Franchise Tax Board that they cannot see these lawful coins. And I think on the previous show or the first show we told you about this case that had gone through the district court right up to the Supreme Court of the United States. And in that case a man had actually got the first gold coin—it was a five-dollar gold coin into the financial accounts of the United States and it was done by a procedure that everyone would actually know about if they only studied how you get evidence into a court. And in this case the evidence, the gold coin, was not put in as evidence but in payment of any and all debts owing and when it went through the opposing party which was the attorney general of the United States of America did not respond—they could not respond because they, themselves, could not see that lawful coin. You have to question why can’t they see the lawful coin? It’s an enumerated power of Congress to create a coin money which is the gold into a coin shape or a standard so everyone can look at it and say, ‘ok, that’s ten dollars or that’s five dollars.’ Well, why couldn’t they see it? Because they are not a lawful government, that are not under the law of the land.

[Joyce]             Oh, wow, that is huge, what you just said.

[Ron]               So, they could only see the obligations of the United States and unless you’re using obligations of the United States and in this particular case the lower court made one statement that blew the entire case out of the water for the American people and that statement was to the defendant, you have not placed a value on that gold coin, if any.

[Dr. Rowen]    What monetary value, if any.

[Ron]               Now, what that means is that, first of all, in our country only the Congress of the United States was allowed to place a value on that gold coin. The gold coin was minted under the mint act of 1792 which has never been repealed as proper money.

[Joyce]             During the break we were talking about a couple of statements that were made and I think we need to just quickly say those again. The government cannot see gold or silver and the reason why, Robert?

[Dr. Rowen]    They’re operating in debt only. They’re operating in commerce, they have compelled themselves to deal with exchange of debt only therefore the lawful money, the gold and silver coin, it’s a fact that they can’t see it and we prove it in the book. We’ve done what no one else has done before. We have proven in the book that the court system all the way to the Supreme Court cannot see lawful money. The California Franchise Tax Board actually returned a lawful gold coin that was tendered in the payment of alleged tax. It can’t see the lawful money either therefore we are not dealing with a lawful government. We are dealing with a government that’s only dealing in someone else’s debt which then spills over into Article Four of the Constitution. It’s dealing with someone else’s debt which is property. Debt is also property. And in Article Four of the Constitution Congress has the power to make all needful rules and regulations respecting its property which is its debt. That’s one of the ways we get roped into these courts which otherwise would only have jurisdiction over the territory.

[Ron]               I would add to that that once you understand that the Federal Reserve notes are debtor’s instruments and you realize that the United States is moving in debtor’s instruments you don’t need a declaration of bankruptcy to understand the true financial situation of the United States. It doesn’t have a lawful money system but a currency system based in debt to move so it cannot, it does not have what we would call unalienable rights that we have. It doesn’t have anything comparable to that because it has no law. It can see no law. It can only see what the regulatory law would be for it to move as a debtor nation. Did I make that clear or do I need to expand on it?

[Joyce]             Ok, no, that’s fine. Let me go to Art in Michigan. Art in Michigan, you’re on the air—go ahead, please.

[Art]                I read the book. I could spend the next half hour saying how great it is. It just brings the hay down where we cows can eat it. I’ve been into the thing since…  I have a comment and a little extra information and I’ll be as short as I can. I got a 1904 school book, Mason’s School History of the United States, 1904. I got the 1922 edition and it said, ‘Solomon P. Chase, we took the war debt of the northern aggression, the Civil War debt, and he monetized it. I could read out of the book but I’ll not take that time. I’ll send the information to wherever I can but then the other one was concerning the book directly, They Own It All, it’s concerning the coinage act of 1792 and it’s in the appendix on page 205. But there is one clause in there that I’ve read in there that was just overlooked. Maybe it’s in the body of the book someplace and I just quickly read over it but it said, anybody, the coinage act of 1792 has one of the clauses says that anyone that debauches or debases the money, it’s not defaced—rip it, tear it, write on it, drill a hole in it or something like that—not deface. It would take away the value of the…shall…  It was 1863, Solomon P. Chase who was the Secretary of Treasury passed a law that the bond by which the nation borrowed money for the Civil War became the basis of a new system of national bank. Ok, that’s enough on that but I was wondering if the gentlemen were aware of a late 1970 or early ‘80s book, Money, the Greatest Hoax on Earth by Merrill Jenkins…

[Joyce]             Thank you very much, Art. Art let me just add you are such a studier of this, I am just so impressed. And, listeners, that’s what’s behind the Power Hour listener. These are not just people that are tuning in so they can hear the music and have something to do for a day. They want to learn and when somebody like Art fromMichigan is listening to the Power Hour that tells me there’s something here they want to learn from. Let me go to Ron MacDonald to respond to what you had to say. Go ahead, Ron.

[Ron]               Actually, I haven’t heard of Jenkins’ book. There’s  lot of books out there that I’ve read and in the course of law everything that has any information in it that in order to become very aware of what’s happened here in the United States you do need to pick up these books and you do need to read them and study them. Art, you can see he’s a devoted and religious viewer of what’s out there, what’s currently out there.

[Joyce]             And I want to give kudos to these people because they could be listening to any show, right now, and they’re listening to the Power Hour because they know that you have information to offer them and the credentials to impress them enough to spend their time here and time is everything. Robert, anything you’d like to add.

[Dr. Rowen]    One comment, before the break when the break cut him off he was talking about debauching the coin of the United States under the mint act. That is a totally different statute and jurisdiction than what we’re dealing with the Federal Reserve note debt notes. And if you read the Coinage Act you’ll see that those coins came from different metal than the metal that the current bullion coin has acquired and we point that out in the book, too. So, I just wanted to let him know that that law pertained to the lawful money. The government, then, on its own went and just made currency out of debt and I’m not going to call it money. It’s not money. Did they have the authority to do that? Ron and I have discussed that and possibly, yes, simply through their power to regulate commerce. But that doesn’t apply to us.

[Joyce]             Alright, thank you very much for that comment. Let’s go to Keith in Indiana. Keith, you’re on the air—go ahead, please.

[Keith]             The comment was made that the word of God forbids usury. Deuteronomy 23:19, thou shalt not lend upon usury to thy brother. Verse 20, unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury, but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury.  I hear this comment all the time. They never look into the truth. The brethren are always Israelites according to their flesh, God’s elect. The word, stranger, there is nokri.   If you read through the law you get very confused by the word, stranger, because sometimes it’s gar, a guest, other times it’s nokri, or… 

[Joyce]             Ok, are you taking issue with what they’re saying, then?

[Keith]             I’m saying that it does not forbid usury. It forbids usury to the brothers. It’s a very important point.

[Dr Rowen]     The caller talked about usury as it was mentioned in the Bible meaning you were forbidden to do usury on your bother but you were ok to do it on a stranger and I want to elaborate on that. I’m not going to call myself a Bible scholar and this book wasn’t written about religion. Our book was written about economics but usury is very important. Usury is the means to destroy someone. It’s my own feeling that it was forbidden to do usury on your brother meaning, in the caller’s term, the Israelites, because the people knew that that was the means to destroy your brother. It was the actual means to destroy but it was ok to do it on a stranger. Well, why on a stranger? If you go back to the Bible the Israelites were not clean either. They were ordered by God to go in and take over other lands by killing people yet we know that killing is wrong. So, I think we’re trying to cut straws and one can’t do that. Usury destroys and I consider the caller my brother even though he’s a stranger. I consider you my sister. We are all brothers and sisters. Usury simply destroys and it’s the means to destroy a people, it’s the means to destroy a nation and that’s why it probably was allowed then because you could conquer another nation through usury without even firing a shot but you were forbidden to do it on your brother. Ron, you want to elaborate?

[Ron]               Yes, I’d like to make a comment on it and it deals with the brethren and the stranger, of course, as citizens of our states and of the United States. We are the law givers. We created our states and our states created the federal government. Now, in accordance with brother and strangers, are we, in fact, the brother or the stranger to the very creature that we created who turns about and charges interest on a currency system? Well, we’re neither brother or stranger. We are the creators of this and we should not be subject to any usury law that the United States, the creature we’ve created indirectly through our states, has burdened us with—that’s my comment on it.

[Dr. Rowen]    To elaborate on that a little bit as our diagram in the book shows in Appendix A, the founding of a nation there was the Creator at the top. Rights came from the Creator to man. Man, then, delegated some of his rights, his unalienable rights, to protect himself to the state which re-delegated more limited powers of international commerce to the United States. So we have God, man, state, United States. After the 14th Amendment and certainly after the conversion, after gold was stolen God and man were removed from the top. The United States was at the top but the International bankers were above the United States and we ended up at the bottom. We ended up being the subject of our creation.

[Joyce]             That’s right. Man is chattel and ended up at the bottom of that after 1933. Alright, thank you very much, Keith, for the phone call. Let’s go to Vaughn inNew York. Vaughn, you’re on the air with Ron MacDonald and Dr. Robert Rowen—go ahead, please.

[Dr. Rowen]    Remember, we wanted to talk about 861 too.

[Joyce]             Let’s go to the 861 issue. The 861 issue is promoted by a gentleman who ended up unfortunately in jail for a while and the threat of his wife going to jail, Larkin Rose which we carry the book here at the Power Hour about 861. Who wants to address the issue of 861?

[Ron]               I’ll probably say what it’s about. In the courts with the 861…  If one has foreign source or income when is one liable for income taxes on such income and required to pay taxes on that income, 3) required to file a return with respect to that income, 4) required to keep books and records with respect to that income, 5) required to submit to IRS audits with respect to that income. Since income tax is based on self assessment those who have foreign sources of income are required by law to self-assess themselves. Now, I already mentioned the…in that revenue—in this we’re speaking of revenue. Revenue is admiralty, it’s a foreign jurisdiction. At that point that we received money and this is what the claim was that if you received money from a foreign source you were subject to the income tax. Well, those who are falling under that 861 argument says, well I get my money here in the United States—I earn my income here in the United States. That’s domestic income and they didn’t see the flaw in that because they weren’t given the entire gamut of that what I call adhesive contract as it’s known out there, those contracts we fall under. They didn’t know that they were in not a domestic jurisdiction but a foreign jurisdiction using foreign products each and every time they exchanged their labor. When they exchanged their labor and agreed to accept foreign instruments known as Federal Reserve notes they were actually merchants on the high seas taking in foreign products, importing foreign products. And then when they turned around and they want to export those foreign products they do so by paying their PG&E or their water bill or their mortgages. Now they’re exporting foreign products and that’s the issue there. But see, the point is that they didn’t realize that this is fraudulent concealment. They were under the belief that they actually were dealing in domestic product that it was our currency, our money, we own it. But we have all the earmarks that we don’t own it. We can’t leave with $10,000 of these Federal Reserve notes the country without declaring them. We can’t pull that amount out of the bank. We can’t put that amount into the banks because they are foreign products.

[Dr. Rowen]    You can’t even leave them to your kids after you pay taxes on it if it’s beyond a certain amount.

[Ron]               Because you don’t own it. You can see why Larkin Rose had his faulty premise—was not based on what was apparent in society—because we all still believe that it’s our product, don’t we? Everyone that deals with that Federal Reserve note believes, well, it’s my money, it’s in my pocket, I own it. Well, see what he didn’t realize is he never owned it. It was a lien instrument and it was theirs. And the law is specific on international law. When you’re a merchant dealing in imports and exports you’re deemed to know the law and he was deemed to know the law. That’s why they rode right over him. {And who can fight the beast?}

[Joyce]             Alright, now, let’s deal with another issue. I know we’ve got a bunch of callers that are holding so my apologies to you right now. But I know, Robert, you believe that the jury vote or perhaps you both believe this that the jury vote is just one of the most important issues we could even be addressing right now under the solutions category.

[Dr. Rowen]    Yes. The reason why I do, people are asking me about remedies and we have an excellent remedy section in the book. But the first thing that comes up is, well, what can I do as an individual because we really to get the bulk of the remedy which is to change the currency, get out of debt notes, it’s going to require millions of people knowing this. So that requires education. We need to get this book out to as many people as possible to educate them. Then we really can run the ultimate remedies but right now probably the most powerful remedy that any single reader has is knowing when they’re a juror what jurisdiction they’re in. And if they happen to be on a federal case they’re in an admiralty jurisdiction. If they’re on a state case that doesn’t involve a common law crime like a murder or a rape or theft they’re still in admiralty law and one juror who realizes this can hang that jury and stop the whole process and the Achilles heel in this horrific system is they still need us to convict our brothers. They can’t do it alone. They still need us even in the commercial jurisdiction and one enlightened soul on a jury can hang that jury and bring the system down to its knees. Ron, do you want to comment?

[Ron]               And again, we’re not giving legal advice. However, it’s so important that each of us understands what a violation of law is and why is law out there. Law is out there to benefit us, that’s the purpose of it. It’s to benefit us.

[Joyce]             Or is it supposed to be the purpose of it?

[Ron]               Well, that’s the actual purpose of it, it’s not the purpose of it today, obviously. And we know when a law benefits us because we’re usually damaged when the law is violated. And I’m going to give you the equation for common law. Common law says you need an action plus a damage to equal the violation of law. That means if I take my car and I zoom it right into your front living room I’ve done an action and I’ve done a damage and that results in a tort or a claim that you have against me for that. It’s so apparent you can see it very clearly. Now, that’s the type of law we say to look at when you’re on a jury. Any law that does not fit that simple equation, an action plus a damage equals a violation of law is a law that’s in commerce. Anything that doesn’t fit that is a law in commerce. Now, law in commerce says that merely an action is equal to the damage. I sped down the highway, I didn’t injure anyone, it was five o’clock in the morning, the highway was vacant except for some highway patrol officer hiding behind a tree. I broke the law. Well, did you commit a damage against any citizen in your area, in your state? No, you did not. So, an action equals a violation of law. I jaywalked but there were no cars but I got caught. That’s the type of law we need to do away with because it regulates us. It is not a law of God—it regulates you.

[Joyce]             Let’s see if Vaughn in New York is back—Vaughn, are you there?

[Vaughn]         Yep. I’ve got a comment that everything that keeps being broken down has been broken down to definitions. The definition of a human being or a man to me at this point really is the issue because if I don’t accept anything as a human being, a man, given my rights by God, the Creator, I don’t have to accept that they have standing to do any of what they are doing and if I want to trade what is in my wallet or is in my heart to give somebody knowledge is really the most important part. If you want to accept these people as being your government you have a man who is sitting there as your president and frankly I haven’t accepted him as my president. Do I not have the right to say I consent to his authority or not? Isn’t that me as a man as they say in the Declaration of Independence that mankind is more disposed to suffer? I don’t want to suffer.

[Joyce]             Ok, let’s get the response from the gentlemen. Which one of you would like to…

[Ron]               All I can say is shame on Vaughn because he’s thinking like a founding father of this country. I wish more people thought like him and it’s true, it’s individual. If we really are who we say we are, our opinions and our beliefs count and, of course, we’re corralled into this commercial jurisdiction where they’ve made a presumption of who we are. But Vaughn is right on it, that attitude needs to circulate around the world.

[Joyce]             Ok, what happens when you tell a judge that, though, Vaughn?

[Ron]               Well, what happens, when you’re in Rome you must do as the Romans do. So when you’re in the commercial law court or a legal court you need to know the laws that you’re in amongst. You cannot defend yourself speaking a foreign language in a commercial court. So you need to learn the law. And part of becoming a free individual is also knowing the laws are being thrown against you and if you don’t know how to circumvent around them you’re going to be stuck within them. So that’s what you need to do and it’s not a simple answer, Joyce. As Robert will tell you I’ve been very experienced in criminal cases and in civil cases and I’ve not failed at any of them because I’ve learned how to circumvent around these courts of—I don’t even know what you want to call them—bankrupt courts.

[Joyce]             Well, that’s going to be a whole entire program on its own. Alright, let me go to Bob in Michigan.

[Bob]               I’m here Joyce, are you there?

[Joyce]             I am here, go ahead please. Bob, you’re on with Ron and Robert—go ahead, please.

[Bob]               Hi guys. I got a question. You guys do a phone thing?

[Joyce]             A phone conference call?

[Bob]               Where you call in and…

[Joyce]             As of yet—I think I can answer that—no, they don’t, a phone conference call where they have a gathering of people that meet on the phone once a week—no, they don’t do that.

[Bob]               Oh, ok.

[Dr. Rowen]    What we do want to do though is we would like people to go to our website: and register because if they do that they will get e-mails from us as we update ideas for remedies and also that way we can help people get together as we get enough. Right now, it’s in its infancy but ultimately we want to get enough people together so that collectively we can make the changes we’re talking about.

[Joyce]             Ok, alright, thank you very much, Bob in Michigan. Let’s go to Chris in Florida. Chris, you’re on the air—go ahead, please, Chris.

[Chris]             Are there any cases such as mine? I was wondering where people have successfully argued the lawful money issue before the defacto courts, the fact that they won’t accept the de jure money under the coinage act, Title 12, Section 152 of the US Code. And in my case they did not and I know I’ve given you this whole story before but just suffice it to say I used only two laws, that Title 12, Section 152 that defines lawful money as gold and silver coin of the United States and also the Uniform Commercial Code that says that when they—in Section 3-603 that says that if they refuse tender then they have discharged the obligation and I did have a judge here in Pinellas County rule in my favor in 1996. You can see the story up on the lawful money blog at the  .

[Joyce]             Gentlemen, is there anything either one of you would like to add before we go back to the callers?

[Dr. Rowen]    I would like to add, when you come to a court and the judge runs over you there are means to control that situation. When you’ve done your paperwork and you’ve researched it properly and you’ve brought your case law in and there are no conflicting case laws and the case law interprets the law that’s being tried in that courtroom and the court has overrun that law it has in the courts with law unconstitutionally applied the law. At that point when you put in a brief or if you go for a writ of prohibition prohibiting the court from moving any further you now put the court on defense. It must now prove it did not commit misconduct in office. And you do that by—and you’re going to have to research the unconstitutional applications of the law at that point. So that is your remedy at all times. That’s how you take a court down is when they act in misconduct of their office. And with that they’ve lost their right to their office.

[Joyce]             Ok, thank you very much. Let’s go to Chris in Florida—Chris, you’re on the air, go ahead please.

[Chris]             I’ve been asking if there’s anybody who is successful in trying to tender lawful money and I know of a similar case in Las Vegas that Robert Kahre won in 2007. It was a similar type of a issue although he did not try to pay off his court obligations. He didn’t have any obligations discharged by the court as I did. What he did was he tried to pay his employees with lawful money and there are nine employees that were acquitted of a hundred sixty charges and the basic argument was that the defendants hadn’t paid taxes according to the market value of the precious metal contents of the coins in which they were paid as opposed to their face value. And then the IRS has never before provided guidance on how to handle gold and silver coins that circulate, only on non-circulating collectable coins. So I was curious, are there other people who had similar…

[Dr. Rowen]    Well, let me elaborate on that for you. Mr. Kahre, they weren’t acquitted totally. They were acquitted on a lot of charges and the jury was hung on others and Kahre was just re-tried and in the past several weeks was convicted and he was convicted really bad and will probably spend the rest of his life in prison. But to give you crucial information to the best of my knowledge Mr. Kahre was paying his employees not in lawful money as we were talking about here but in fifty dollar gold bullion legal tender coins. Those coins are within the jurisdiction of the government. Those coins are liened to the government. Those coins are tainted with the poison, with the toxicity of the Federal Reserve note. And if you don’t believe me and we’ve drawn this distinction in the book. I didn’t spell it out in the book as necessarily—I spelled it out in the book but what I did was I asked the reader to go and read the law that creates those coins versus the coinage act of 1792 and you will see the difference. The Coinage Act of 1792 is in our book in the appendix. Go to Title 31, Money and Finance, and take a look at how those bullion coins, where the metal comes from in those coins, you will see a huge difference and I believe you will agree with me that the current bullion coins, the fifty dollar Eagle coins are counterfeit coins—they’re tainted, there’re poisoned and they’re liened by the presence of Federal Reserve notes. And I believe that’s how they got him.

[Joyce]             Alright, thank you very much for the phone call, Chris—interesting case. Jim in Ohio, you’re on the air—go ahead, please.

[Jim]                Thank you very much. First, I want to say your show has changed our lives. Your guests are very interesting. Hate to take this, maybe, in a different direction but it may be down their alley. My current mortgage company recently got shut down by the FHA and over a hundred and eighty thousand accounts have been transferred to Bank of America. First, I’d like to get their thoughts on that situation, Bank of America just somehow got control of these accounts.

[Joyce]             Just somehow, that’s right. Ok, let me go to their—I don’t know if they have a response to this. I don’t know if they do mortgages or not. Jim, thank you very much for the phone call and your kind comments. Any response, gentlemen?

[Dr. Rowen]    Normally, the bank will buy the loan out or secure the loan but they don’t necessarily get the note along with it or they don’t get the contract along with it. They may buy the note and that’s evidence that there’s an outstanding debt owed but there is, again, and you have that case you mentioned earlier. There’s no mortgage agreement that travels with that note or visa versa, they get a mortgage agreement and they don’t get the note. Well, without the evidence of the actual owner with the two-pronged system of a mortgage and a note, the mortgage securing the note, they don’t have standing in a court of law to move against an individual. I can only presume where this caller was going and I have no doubt maybe he might be in the same situation as many in the United States that are possibly facing foreclosure or in the future will be facing foreclosure but the point is it is a very valid argument that both items have to be together in order to enforce each other. Without both items there the note cannot be enforced without the contract and the contract cannot be enforced without evidence of the note. And that’s where the bottom line is.

[Joyce]             Alright, thank you very much, Jim from Ohio, for the phone call. Let’s go to Joe in Arkansas. Joe, you’re on the air-go ahead please—question or comment for Robert or Ronald?

[Joe]                Yes, I do and the question is this: many years ago I went to a patriot meeting in California where a man pointed out something about the money that I haven’t heard anybody else mention since but it seems like a point of real significance and that’s this. On the old gold and silver certificates it would say something like ‘this note is legal tender for all debts public and private and is redeemable in lawful money at the United States Treasury or any Federal Reserve bank,’ then there would be a period at the end of the sentence showing that the sentence was finished. But on the new Federal Reserve notes now it says ‘this note is legal tender for all debts public and private,’ and the sentence stops. There’s no period at the end of it showing that the sentence is not finished and so I want to ask the guest, there, who seems to know so much about the money, what do you think of the significance of the fact that they don’t put a period at the end and finish the sentence on the Federal Reserve notes where they did on the old notes that were redeemable in gold or silver?

[Joyce]             Thank you very much, Joe from Arkansas. Man, you are thinking way outside the cage. You got to watch that. Let’s go back to our guests. Go ahead, please.

[Dr. Rowen]    We actually have pictures on the book of the old notes, of the old gold certificates, and we have a picture of the new one. I pay less attention—Ron may have a different opinion. I pay less attention to the period than I do the words. The words are legal tender. What does legal tender mean? Legal means form of and tender means offer. So this note is a form of offer. It’s not payment. It’s just a form of offer. The older notes, the gold certificates actually did have the word payment on there. ‘Legal tender in the payment thereof’ and that was on the gold certificate. Why? Because that certificate actually represented substance. Now, it still wasn’t payment, it was still legal tender because it wasn’t the substance itself but it actually represented the substance. Today’s legal tender paper represents nothing. So you’re offering a worthless piece of paper that carries a lien for what it is that you’re getting. Ron, do you want to elaborate?

[Joyce]             Ok, I’ll tell you what, we really don’t have much time to elaborate on that if you don’t mind. Let me go on to Rhonda in Missouri. I want to get everybody in here before we run out of time. Rhonda in Missouri, go ahead, please.

[Rhonda]         Good morning. I heard you talking about it’s important to know who you are and I can’t take credit for this. Somebody brought it to my attention but the theme song to CSI Miami is Who Are You?

[Joyce]             Oh, wow, that is interesting, you’re right, thank you very much, Rhonda, for that comment. Anything else you want to add?

[Rhonda]         I think that’s the biggest thing we need to focus on, who we are.

[Joyce]             That’s right, who we are. Thank you very much. We are owned, that’s for sure. Thank you for the phone call. Let me go to Jim in Kansas. Jim, you’re on the air, go ahead please with Ronald and Robert. Go ahead, please.

[Jim]                I’ve been listening to talk shows since you converted me back in Houston. You started me thinking. In all this time I’ve never heard anybody address one simple thing that is right in front of our face. We are not a people with rights given by God. We are a resource with privileges given by man. Now, as a resource we don’t have any say in anything, do we?

[Joyce]             Ok, who wants to respond to that?

[Ron]               That’s always been my focus is you have a choice here you can serve one master or another. One master is government and the other master is the Creator. If you serve the Creator you’ve turned your back on government. If you serve the government you turn your back on the Creator. All rights come from or arise from the Creator. All privileges and immunities and controls and regulatory laws over your every aspect come from government. Which do you want and I think that’s in alignment with what the caller just mentioned.

[Jim]                They didn’t give us a choice. They just made us a resource.

[Dr. Rowen]    We’ve actually played into that ourselves because we have permitted ourselves to use their commercial property, the Federal Reserve note instead of the Treasury of God which is gold coin. {And we have also made ourselves agents of the principal (Gov) by blindly signing contracts without realizing what we’re signing and getting entrapped with.}And if you don’t have that treasury of God on you then you’re a debtor. You have no rights. You only have privileges.

[Joyce]             Ok, thank you very much. Let’s go to William in New Jersey. William, you’re on the air with Robert and Ronald—go ahead please.

[William]         Hello, Joyce, William Raymond here.

[Joyce]             Oh, my goodness, good to hear from you, Pastor.

[William]         How are you.

[Joyce]             I am doing outstanding. Thank you for joining us today. Comment or questions for the guest please.

[William]         Excellent show this morning. I just wanted to  comment that your guest here and everything that they’ve said really underscores the reason why. For several years, now, we have advocated for Christians to step out of the corporate pews into the actual and literal ecclesia of Christ where we have our own government, we have our own courts, we basically avoid all of these various entanglements of the secular civil venue.

[Joyce]             Right, now just to let them know, you got your church taken away because you refused to be a 501(c)(3)—correct?

[William]         Well, actually, we were never 501(c)(3) from the beginning when we established the church. We made that clear that it was a church an ecclesia established on the Lordship of Christ as provided and protected by the First Amendment and that therefore we were operating apart from and literally above the secular civil venue.

[Joyce]           Ok, do you have a question or comment because we’re running out of time, sir. Question or comment?

[William]         It is critical for believers to make that decision to come out from among them and be ye separate and to avoid all of these entrapments of the natural man in the secular civil venue.

[Joyce]             Ok, alright, thank you very much for the comment. I know you’re are right on about that. I’m not going to go to a response from them because we’re running out of time. Wes, in Idaho, you’re on the air—go ahead, please.

[Wes]               Couldn’t you put into the record an affidavit that you’re a man or a woman, whatever the case may be and overcome a charge against a person?

[Dr. Rowen]    Well, a comment on that and this goes to what the Pastor just said, as well. If you’re a man and you want to stand on your unalienable rights you have to be solvent. If you’re insolvent you’re a debtor. And if you’re a debtor you have no rights. Debtors are beholden and subject to the creditor.

[Joyce]             Ok, thank you very much, Wes, for the phone call. Sal in New York, you’re on the air—go ahead please.

[Sal]                 Good morning, Joyce.

[Joyce]             Good morning, haven’t heard from you in a while—go ahead, please.

[Sal]                 My question is if you have silver coin can you use that in trade?

[Ron]               Yeah, you can use silver coin in trade with anyone that will accept it and, see, it’s raising the consciousness of the American people once they realize—and I should say this: Representation, commerce is everything that represents. So when you’re in a court of law and you have an attorney that attorney is representing you. He’s in commerce. That gold certificate, silver certificate, represents gold—it’s in commerce. Your deed of trust is in commerce, it represents your ownership. You either possess it and own it or you don’t {but if you record it, i.e. register it with the government you have given them an interest in it and your property is toast (well done).} so everything that represents is in commerce. We need to waken ourselves to seeing the real thing. Silver coin is a real thing, isn’t it? It doesn’t represent a coin. It is the actual thing.

[Joyce]             I’ve got Loren from Ohio, final caller for the Power Hour today, go ahead, Loren, you’re on the air with Robert and Ronald—go ahead, please.

[Loren]            I just wanted to thank you, gentlemen, we’re in the midst of a revelation revolution. We are understanding that the one that creates is the one that has the right to control and since no man made another man there is no man that has any right to control another man {unless you unwittingly contract yourself in}. The other thing is fraud negates consent. With all this that’s written in the libraries full of books and rules and codes and statutes and regulations when the government said blacks weren’t humans that didn’t make it true. The problem that we have is that we don’t cleave unto truth, we don’t hold on to our husband. The husband, the bridegroom of us is supposed to be Christ and Christ is the way, the truth and the light. We need to cling to the truth for all it’s worth. Hosea, my people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge. We don’t know the truth and then once we do know it we’re afraid to hold onto it. The Constitution supports what I’m saying. Check out Article 14 in the Constitution, all persons born and naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof  are citizens of the United States and the state therein.’ Everybody is not subject to the jurisdiction thereof. And if you go to the very end of that first paragraph, ‘nor to deny any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the law.’ Persons are artificial entities that they are contracting with. They’re trying to trick us into leaving our station as kings. This was a nation of kings. The Constitution was established to limit the maids and the butlers for the king that was there to protect life, liberty and pursuit of happiness…

[Joyce]            I got to get a response from them but you are so good and we could have you on the entire two hours, I know, thank you very much, Loren, for the phone call. Gentlemen, response to what Loren in Ohio said?

[Ron]               You actually stated my comments. She should be a guest speaker.

[Joyce]             Loren used to be a pharmaceutical rep—Loren, are you still there?

[Loren]            Hi, I am.

[Joyce]             Ok, now, you home school your children and you don’t give pharmaceuticals any more, do you?

[Loren]            Absolutely not.

[Dr. Rowen]    And I’ll bet she doesn’t give vaccinations, either.

[Loren]            I found out the truth. Oh, absolutely not; I found out the truth and when I turned and walked in it I was so blessed and this is the message that I want people to understand. We don’t need the whole group to do the right thing. He said, if my people, Israel—that means God rules—if my people are called by my name will return to Me, repent…

[Joyce]             Thank you, Loren, thank you, thank you for joining us today on the program. You are just such an inspiration, such a blessing. Thank you gentlemen, you are a blessing to us. They Own it All Including You available at the Power Hour—877-817-9829. Gentlemen, thank you for joining us on the Power Hour, today. I’m out of breath—this has been awesome. Thank you so much for joining us, today. Ladies and Gentlemen, remember the truth…. {cut off}